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KG_Panzerschreck
07-08-2005, 03:52 PM
Which would you rather fight from, a Panther G, or an Tiger I?

I would have to go with the Tiger myself, i know it breaks down and the Panthers gun is better at range, but i have to go with the heavier armor and the better HE preformance and the "Tiger Terror" value of the Tiger.

KG_Kharkov
07-08-2005, 04:27 PM
The Tiger breaks down! It pales compared to the Panther's mechanical problems. Shot trap defects, engine defects, engine fires. The Panther is a piece of crap (not really, but it ain't no Tiger).

I'll take the Tiger 1 any day.

KG_Jag
07-08-2005, 05:53 PM
For all battlefield conditions and weather--give me the Panther, especially if its a late G. Just try to take a Tiger off road in the mud or in snow. Plus the Panther's rate of fire is far superior; even the King Tiger fires faster than the Tiger. Don't even mention speed. An ice cream truck can shut down a Tiger!

Jim and I could not have done what we did in our FGM game as the Germans with Tigers.

Still under the right conditions and used properly, the Tiger is one heck of a tank, especially in 1942 and 1943.

KG_Red_Star
07-08-2005, 06:50 PM
I m with Jag on this one
1) Speed, on and off road
2) Agility
3) Sloped armor
4) High velocity 75 mm with plenty of penetrating power
5) Speed of reload

I'll take a 44 onward G

Red

KG_SSpoom
07-08-2005, 07:18 PM
I like the Tiger for sheer "Fear Factor"
Plus I bet Angelina could heft those 88s where Jen would
have trouble Loading either.

KG_Cloghaun
07-08-2005, 08:44 PM
Combat Mission and history are two different things.

1. The kill ratios are higher across the board with Tiger tanks than with any other German tank. Much higher.
Meaning how many enemy tanks each Tiger knocked out before being destroyed itself.
2. No other tank had the immediate impact on the battlefield as the Tiger. One has to look no further than Kursk.
3. No other tank was formed into independant battalions to be used as fire brigades.
4. The top two German tank aces, Wittmann and Carius commanded Tiger I's and their kill totals were much better than Barkmann's - (the top Panther ace).
5. I have nearly 50 tanks in my war room and my Tiger I that Jay made me is the coolest one of the bunch.

KG_Jag
07-08-2005, 09:00 PM
I am shocked....shocked that Frank picked the Tiger.

However two additional points to consider. First the Tiger ruled the battlefield for a year to a year and a half after it was introduced. It had no serious threats from any Allied AFV of that time. The Panther, especially the non-rushed to Kursk fixed Panther, came into the war when more serious Alllied tanks and tank destroyers were on or soon to be on the battlefield.

Second the Germans continued production of the Panther to the end of the war, while it stopped producing Tiger 1s by the summer of 1944. In part this was because the Tiger was too expensive and slow to build. In part it was because the KT, which is more like a King Panther, could do almost everything better, had sloped armor, and what it could not do, the Panther could and did.

KG_Kharkov
07-08-2005, 09:06 PM
I agree with Frank. History and gameplay are two totally separate things here. Wittman in a Tiger was unstoppable. Tiger kill ratios throughout the war were incredible. I gotta go with the odds -- still picking the Tiger!

KG_Swampfox
07-09-2005, 12:31 AM
Gents,

I agree with Bill and Red Star, G model panther, a much more progessive design, easier and cheaper to produce, easier to transport, easier to recover damaged or disabled machines. Part of what makes a great AFV is its ability to be upgraded. The basic design of the Panther allowed it to be improved till the collapse. Sloped armour offers higher resistance to penatration vs verticial armour. As far as kills, look at the opponents,
Tigers slaughtered T-34 42 and 43 models like flies, but the Panthers would have also had they been developed earlier.
After Kursk, german soldiers increasingly had to watch for air attack from the growing red air force, I'd have wanted to be in a Panther after Kursk, before Kursk? Certianly a tiger....

Swamp :wink:

KG_ThorsHammer
08-19-2005, 08:50 PM
its a very tough question

The Tigers armour was very well made, and thick even at the sides.
The Panthers frontal armour may have been a little better, but side armour was poor.

The Panthers 75mm was so good it actually had better anti armour performance than the Tigers dreaded 88, but the 88 had better HE performance.

Both types had their mechanical problems, although I think the G model panther may have been a little better.

Despite its size, the Tiger was faster and more manouverable than the markIV,
but the Panther was still better in both regards.

Off road the lighter Panther was less likely to bog down.

Its such a tight race. If you asked me which I would produce, I would say the Panther as one could produce two in the same time and for the same cost as one Tiger. But which would I rather be in??..I would have to take the Tiger because of its good overall armour

KG_Koz
08-19-2005, 11:52 PM
This is really a tough question for me. I know, a lot of you think that I would automatically pick a Panther but i'm scratching my head because the question is which tank would I rather be in myself.

The Panther has soooo much going for it. If I were a German armaments minister and was deciding which tank to produce, definitely the Panther. But, I think that the Panthers weak side armor would worry the hell out of me if I were headed into action in it. Panther crews were very dependent upon inf/armor to protect their flanks. I think that Tiger 1 crews probably were much more at ease given the Tigers much better all-around armor.

Hmmmmmm.......i'd hate to be in a tank PERIOD but if I had to pick one i'd take a Tiger.

KG_SSpoom
08-20-2005, 12:14 PM
What word was came screaming out of allied troops mouths at the 1st sign of German Armor.... was it Stug? nah was it PZ4?...nah was it Panther?....nah
It Was TIGER !!!!!run for youre life!!!!!(also sometimes muttered by survivors in their sleep)
And that clinches it for me give me a Tiger
Steve

KG_Kharkov
08-20-2005, 12:18 PM
Well said!

KG_Cloghaun
08-20-2005, 12:45 PM
You're brought to an open field. Gentle rises, wide open terrain for miles around. You are told you must fight to the death while commanding one of two tanks. The tank you do not chose will end up being your opponent. You look over in the field and see a Panther G and a Tiger I next to each other.

You get first pick. Which one do you climb into?

KG_AGCent
08-20-2005, 01:10 PM
Sitting right next to each other? I would grab the Panther G, slam it into reverse and start driving around the back of the Tiger putting round after round into the engine compartment. The turret of the tiger would never be able to catch me.

Ya know... this could be wargamed. Captured Panther vs. a Tiger I in CMBB. The panther would have to be one experience level higher than the Tiger in order for the crews to properly utilize the weapons sights.

KG_AGCent
08-20-2005, 02:03 PM
After Hotseating a Vet Cap Panther vs. Regular Tiger, the Tiger came up on the short end of the stick every time without even being able to fire a shot most of the time. Starting from right next to each other, facing the same direction. When I bumped the Panther back to a Reg, the Panther still won 6 out of 6 engagements but was immobilized once. The marginally quicker turret, faster movement and higher rate of fire was what did the Tiger in.

KG_Cloghaun
08-20-2005, 02:13 PM
You're supposed to fill in the blanks there, Rob. Obviously you start them at opposite ends of the field, say 1-2 kilometers apart. And your also playing yourself vs the (computer)Tiger. Another advantage.

I'll be happy to TCP/IP this with you tonight. One vs one, 5 vs 5, we can try it all.

KG_Cloghaun
08-20-2005, 02:16 PM
The panther would have to be one experience level higher than the Tiger in order for the crews to properly utilize the weapons sights.



give me a break- you already supposedly have every advantage mechanically.

KG_AGCent
08-20-2005, 02:22 PM
give me a break- you already supposedly have every advantage mechanically.

It states in the CMBB manual that Russian crews of captured german equipment are given a penalty while using German optics due to teir complexity. That is why I started with the Ruskies at a one level advantage.

KG_AGCent
08-20-2005, 02:23 PM
You're supposed to fill in the blanks there, Rob. Obviously you start them at opposite ends of the field, say 1-2 kilometers apart. And your also playing yourself vs the (computer)Tiger. Another advantage.

I'll be happy to TCP/IP this with you tonight. One vs one, 5 vs 5, we can try it all.

I Hotseated the game, meaning I played both sides and did my best to keep both tanks alive.

KG_Cloghaun
08-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Putting a regular crew into a Tiger is like putting in the three stooges. It's no wonder they never fired.

Like I said, I'll play you tonight. You can be a crack Panther and I'll take a veteran Tiger. We start at 2000 meters. Best three out of five wins.

KG_Koz
08-20-2005, 02:36 PM
this sounds like fun! i'll be logging on later to see what the outcome is

KG_AGCent
08-20-2005, 03:14 PM
Sure. 15 turns each, 3 minute turns, 5 minutes to set up.

KG_Panzerschreck
08-21-2005, 02:14 AM
What happened? im jumping in my seat in anticipation! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

KG_Cloghaun
08-21-2005, 10:37 AM
It was more or less a draw. Rob made the mistake of making it a platoon of Panthers (5) vs a platoon of Tigers (4). Since it was already set up I agreed to continue playing.

Anyway it was pretty boring as you might expect. In the end, he bagged two of my Tigers and I nailed 2 of his Panthers. I withdrew 2 Tigers off the map due to gun damage.

KG_Jag
08-21-2005, 12:31 PM
So the debate continues....

KG_Swampfox
08-21-2005, 01:52 PM
Rematch.......

Rematch......

KG_SSpoom
08-21-2005, 02:00 PM
I would like to Import a M1A2 into the game just for shits and giggles,
then lets say we start at 1.5 miles........sorta like the end of " A few Dollars More"......key the chimes

KG_Panzerschreck
08-21-2005, 09:19 PM
Ill still take the Tiger. :ridinghor

KG_Panzerschreck
08-24-2005, 08:07 PM
I asked this question over at SZO and its started quite the debate over there as well. here is a copy of my latest response. id like to pose the same questions to you guys.


"I dont know why everyone is always knocking the Tigers mobility and "breakdownableness". sure the early ones broke down alot but so did the Panther. as a matter of fact the Panther had a worse mechanical record than the Tiger to start with. the Tiger came into its mechanical own with the middle and late models. as for mobility, i agree its no speed demon, but it was quite fast for a 56 ton tank. its biggest problem in my humble opinion was its slow turret traverse.

it just comes down to the numbers. i cant remember where ive read them at, when i find them ill link them, but the Tiger wins hands down in kill ratios and survivability percentage by tank. the numbers are so lopsided it isnt even close. i know some will say that the kill ratios are lopsided because of the elite crews that were in more Tigers than Panthers but that begs the following questions -

1. if the Pather was such a great all round tank, and better than the Tiger, why didnt its inherant "Pluses" outweigh the differance in crew experience, and especially kill ratios if the gun was so much better than the Tigers?

2. how does that explain the survivability factor? the Tiger i belive had 100mm frontal armor with no slope while the Panther had 100mm with 60 degrees of slope. you'd think the Panther would win the front armor battle but it doesnt. why is that?"

here is the link to the thread over at SZO - http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31244

KG_Jag
08-24-2005, 11:14 PM
When your Tiger is stuck in the mud or snow, the still mobile Panther will perforate its side or arse.

Brandenburg
09-22-2005, 06:10 PM
It pales compared to the Panther's mechanical problems. Shot trap defects, engine defects, engine fires. The Panther is a piece of crap (not really, but it ain't no Tiger).

Alot of these problems with the pather were solved with the PzKfwg VG.. Most of the mechanical problems of the early models stem from the fact that the panthers were rushed into mass production for the battle of Kursk in the summer of 43'. There is no piece of military hardware that is as complicated to produce as a tank that doesnt have any teething problems. This is even more so when the tank in question was designed and built in war time

As for the Tiger. This was a good tank but It did require some highly mlotivated crews to opperate it effectively. WHY is this you might ask. The transmission was quirky at best and took a very experiened driver to get the most out of it. It also required dilligent maintaince to keep it opperating at top efficiency. Didnt ya ever wonder why the tigers were in special sPzAbt units...(Heavy tank detachments) This I belive wasnt because of the weight of the tank in as much as It need highly motivated and dedicated tank crews. By definition.. an Elite tank unit. By the time the panther hit the seen, the tigers teething troubles were still there to some extent but alot of the bugs were worked out. Remember that the Tigers were in opperation as much as 6 months before the panthers were.With proper care and maintainence, the tigers was a very effective tank on the battlefield and would often take over the battle in there sectors of opperation

The Tigers biggest asset was not it its weapons or size in as much as its psycological effect it had on enemy tankers and soldiers. This fear permiated up to the divisional level IMHO.The panzer I would have faught in and probably died in was the PzKfwg VG. The panzer is just a beautiful tank to behold. It has incredible lines and semetry, had a powerful engine, and had a very lethal 75 mm gun...Even though, being part of Wittmans Tiger tank crew must of rocked hard IMHO

SPECIFICATIONS

Model:Pzkfwg VG "Pather"
Specicification Number:sd. kfz. 171
Weight in Action: 50 short tons
Crew:5

ARMOR
-----------------
front glacias plate: 80 mm at 55 degrees
front nose plate:60 mm at 35 degrees
rear plate:40 mm at 30 degrees
hull sides:40 mm vertical
superstructure sides:50 mm at 30 degrees
turret front:110 mm at 10 degrees
turret sides:45 mm at 25 degrees
turret rear:45 mm at 28 degrees

ARMARMENT(coaxially mounted in turret)
one 7,.5 cm Kw.K.42(L/70) and 1 mg34
In Hull:
one mg34

Engine:Maybach HL 230 p30
Cylinders: V-12
Fuel: Gasoline
full capacity:193 gallons
Full consumption(per 100 miles)
on Roads:149 Gallons
cross-country:298 Gallons
BHP:690 HP at 3,000 RPM
capacity:23 Liters(1,403 cubic inches)
Road Speed:20 mph
Cross-Country Speed:15mph
Maximum speed:35 mph
Range on Roads:124 miles
Range Cross country:62 miles

Model:Pzkfwg VIE "Tiger I"
Specicification Number:sd. Kfz. 181
Weight in Action: 62.75 short tons
Crew:5

ARMOR
-----------------
front glacias plate:102mm at 20 degrees
lower nose plate:62 mm at 80 degrees
drivers front plate:102 mm at 10 degrees
rear plate:82 mm at 20 degrees
hull sides:62mm vertical
superstructure sides:82 mm at vertical
turret front:100mm at 0 to 11 degrees
turret sides:82mm vertical
turret rear:82mm vertical

ARMARMENT(coaxially mounted in turret)
1 8.8 cm Kw.K.36(l/56)
1 mg34
In Hull:
1 mg34

engine: Maybach HL 230 P45
Cylinders: V-12
Fuel: Gasoline
full capacity:150 gallons approximate
Full consumption(per 100 miles)
on Roads: (unavailable)
cross-country:(unavailable)
BHP:690 HP at 3000rpm
capacity:(unavailable)
Road Speed:
Cross-Country Speed:5 to 10 mph
Maximum speed:25 mph
Range on Roads:87 miles
Range Cross country:53 miles

source:Handbook on German Military forces (ISBN 0-8071-2011-1)

Branden

KG_CrimsonTrooper
09-22-2005, 06:20 PM
The MOST important information from a previous thread in the KG section hasn't been made yet so I think I will state it.......

My Tiger with Angelina Jolie in it will destroy all!

:top: :aetsch:

KG_ThorsHammer
09-22-2005, 06:22 PM
Now when she yells 'Fire one!....Fire two!' ......................is she talking about the 88?? LOL.

KG_Kharkov
09-22-2005, 06:38 PM
I knew I couldn't trust you around my girlfriend! Who said the Canadians were trustworthy . . . .:fight:

KG_Cloghaun
09-22-2005, 07:04 PM
http://www.alanhamby.com/Gallery/rt-081.jpg

No safer place on the eastern front

KG_ThorsHammer
09-22-2005, 07:11 PM
we're just lulling you all into a false sense of security until that fateful day when the mighty beaver shall rise and conquor the world, bringing the Canadian way of life to all. That means cold beer, hot women and lots of bacon eh lol.

KG_Swampfox
09-22-2005, 07:16 PM
The MOST important information from a previous thread in the KG section hasn't been made yet so I think I will state it.......

My Tiger with Angelina Jolie in it will destroy all!

:top: :aetsch:

You, your tank, and AJ will be stuck fast in the mud

I on the other hand, will order my driver to downshift, nail the gas, and spray mud all over the 2 of you as Ashley Judd and I go barreling by.
You wont mind though, cause I'll shoot her bikini top at you as we speed by.

KG_Soldier
09-22-2005, 08:32 PM
I want to go in Ashley's swamp too. Ugh, I mean that I want to ride in Swamp's tank with Ashley too. No, wait, I think I mean't the first.

KG_CrimsonTrooper
09-22-2005, 08:53 PM
You, your tank, and AJ will be stuck fast in the mud

I on the other hand, will order my driver to downshift, nail the gas, and spray mud all over the 2 of you as Ashley Judd and I go barreling by.
You wont mine though, cause I'll shoot her bikini top at you as we speed by.

Well, you see, I wouldn't be moving very much since Angelina is in my tank. I would no doubtedly wait till the mud dried up a bit :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: .

KG_Swampfox
09-22-2005, 09:26 PM
@ Soldier.... LMAO

KG_Cooper
09-23-2005, 12:15 AM
Panther all the way!