China's Military getting bigger & better

[KG_Cloghaun]

China's Military Nearly Impenetrable

Associated Press | September 29, 2007

http://images.military.com/pics/FL_china_092907.jpg

KADENA AIR BASE, Japan - While the U.S. has been tied up in Iraq, China is modernizing its military and its air defenses are now nearly impenetrable to all but the newest of American fighters, the senior U.S. military official in Japan said.

Lt. Gen. Bruce Wright, commander of the roughly 50,000 U.S. forces in Japan, Washington's biggest ally in Asia, said in an interview with The Associated Press this week that the Iraq war is reducing the availability of U.S. troops and equipment to meet other contingencies.

It's also eating funds that could go toward replacing or upgrading planes that are being pushed to their operational limits, he said.

China, meanwhile, is rapidly filling the skies with newer, Russian (http://tech.military.com/equipment/subcategory/8/1/foreign-equipment/aircraft.html)-made Sukhoi Su-27 "Flankers" (http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/89077/su-27-flanker-b.html) and Su-30s, along with the domestically built J-10, a state-of-the-art fighter that Beijing just rolled out in January.

China has also improved its ballistic missile defenses and its ability to take the fight into space - as it proved in January by shooting down an old weather satellite at an orbital height similar to that used by the U.S. military.

Wright stressed he is "positive" about the current efforts to increase diplomatic and political engagement with Beijing. But he said the Chinese military buildup is disconcerting.

China says spending for its People's Liberation Army, the world's largest standing army with 2.3 million members, grew 17.8 percent this year to nearly $45 billion.

The Pentagon estimates China's actual defense spending may be much higher, because the official budget does not include money for high-priced weapons systems and some other items.

In the U.S., the Senate (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,150877,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl#) is wrapping up debate on a $672 billion defense policy bill that would authorize more than a half trillion dollars in annual defense spending and $150 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Are we in trouble? It depends on the scenario," Wright said Thursday. "But you have to be concerned about the small number of our forces and the age of our forces."

Wright noted the Air Force's fleet is older than ever before.

The average age of the F-15 fighters, for example, is about 24 years, while that of the KC-135 Stratotanker, a mid-air refueling plane that is a key element in the Air Force's ability to conduct long-range missions, is 46 years.

Wright, who was at this air base on Japan's southern island of Okinawa to meet with local commanding officers, said the improvement in Chinese air defenses has made China's airspace "difficult if not impossible" to penetrate with the kind of U.S. fighters - F-15s and F-16s - now deployed in Japan.

Doing so would require the F-22 or the Joint Strike Fighter, which both have stealth capabilities. The Air Force sent a dozen F-22s to Japan earlier this year, but only for a temporary deployment. It has no plans to bring more here permanently.

The Joint Strike Fighter, or F-35, is not yet combat-ready.

"Our planes are much older than the planes they would be matched against," Wright said. "For the first time in history, we are seeing another nation, in this case China, with newer fighters than we have. We know that they continue to invest at a level that is unprecedented. We need to be watchful of Chinese military capabilities."

He said the demands of supporting ground troops in Iraq has pushed the Air Force to draw on its fighters from virtually anywhere they can be found. Two U.S. F-16 fighter squadrons from the northern Japan base of Misawa are currently rotating in and out of Iraq.

"The question is how much more are they going to need," he said. "They are already pulling them out of Misawa, so where else are they going to come from?"

Wright noted Beijing is also at an advantage because it is not now at war, and can thus devote more of its resources to building up new capabilities.

"China is not engaged in a tough ground war in southwest Asia so they have the freedom to maneuver to modernize forces that are not current," he said.

Air Force officials have sent up alarms recently regarding funding.

Although the Army and Marines are increasing their troop levels by 92,000, the Air Force had announced plans to cut its costs by reducing 40,000 personnel. That plan had to be scaled back, however, because of the need for support for the larger number of ground troops.

In May, Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne said drastic action was needed.

"I'm concerned for the future," he said. "We're simply not funded to maintain and do everything that everyone wants us to do."

Wright, who is also commander of the 5th Air Force, which is based just outside of Tokyo, said the crunch is being felt in the Pacific.

"It's not just boots on the ground that's fighting the war right now," he said. "There's a funding top line for the Department of Defense, and the Air Force needs more of it."

SOURCE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,150877,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

[KG_Soldier]

What does our being "tied up in Iraq" have to do with China's improved military. We don't yet have the new Joint Strike Fighter ready, but still, what we do have is better than anything they're making now; I think. Am I wrong Pat? And really, would we be spending the money we are in Iraq now on modernizing the most modern army in the world if we weren't still there. Does anyone really believe a U.S vs China war would involve us bombing mainland China? I was, however, shocked that we don't have the "troops and equipment to meet other contingencies" and that the Air Force says they need more money. Honestly, I'm not sure we'll ever have enough troops and equipment to fight a war against China.

[KG_Swampfox]

We don't yet have the new Joint Strike Fighter ready, but still, what we do have is better than anything they're making now; I think. Am I wrong Pat?

Nope


U.S. tactics, weapons systems, fire control, missles, engines, engine controls, command and control, electronic counter measures, and stealth are 15-20 years ahead of the J-10

The J-10 has a delta wing, there is a reason why we dont build fighters with delta wings.....

[Matrf]

Well Soldier, if you keep enslaving the espanic immigrant, you may find the capital for it.
I heard the congress will vote on for legalizing gambling on cell phone before 2010, this could be an other option.

This is just an other cold war anyway. Spy and *censured* weapons.
When I see the u.s with weapons that send micro wave on ppl so they think they are in fire, this let me believe the war won't be conventional. And surely not public.

I think the winner will be the one with the most country under their influence. Using mercantile strategy on their vassal.

Is europe still allie with the u.s? Because I see a war with europe comming pretty fast. But I don't have all the information, so maybe I am mistaken.

[KG_Soldier]

Matrf,
I've been to Mexico and was able to by fresh, beautiful fruit for literally pennies. If you want to claim someone is enslaving someone else, look to Mexico and how much they pay their own citizens to pick fruit! A man making $5 an hour to pick fruit in America is able to support his ENTIRE family still living in Mexico. We're not enslaving them, Mexico is. They come here to get out of economic slavery. Should we pay them more and increase the guest worker program for Mexicans who want to come here and pick fruit and vegetables? yes. Are we enslaving them? BY NO MEANS, we are helping them survive a garbled mess of an economy, which is Mexico. The disparity between rich and poor in Mexico is disgusting. If I were a lower-class Mexican, I'd come over here and pick fruit too.

[Matrf]

Matrf,
I've been to Mexico and was able to by fresh, beautiful fruit for literally pennies. If you want to claim someone is enslaving someone else, look to Mexico and how much they pay their own citizens to pick fruit! A man making $5 an hour to pick fruit in America is able to support his ENTIRE family still living in Mexico. We're not enslaving them, Mexico is. They come here to get out of economic slavery. Should we pay them more and increase the guest worker program for Mexicans who want to come here and pick fruit and vegetables? yes. Are we enslaving them? BY NO MEANS, we are helping them survive a garbled mess of an economy, which is Mexico. The disparity between rich and poor in Mexico is disgusting. If I were a lower-class Mexican, I'd come over here and pick fruit too.


It's not because the current mexican governement is enslaving their own people that you can't do it. By your logic, if someone is already a slave outside the u.s, than he can't be a slave in the u.s.

Your governement made america become africa once, and now america is becoming spain. I don't think they do that for the nice color of the yes of the spanish people.

If you was not enslaving them, you would give them their citizenship.
Or just close the border for good.

I prefer the second choice btw.

[KG_Jag]

I and most others in the U.S. want the border closed.

Matrf, get you nose out of that excellent French wine. Mexicans (and many for from Central America as well) risk their lives to illegally enter the U.S. People do not voluntarily, much less at risk to their lives and those of their families, march themselves into slavery. Money sent from Mexicans in the U.S is Mexico's #2 source of income.

[Matrf]

I and most others in the U.S. want the border closed.

Matrf, get you nose out of that excellent French wine. Mexicans (and many for from Central America as well) risk their lives to illegally enter the U.S. People do not voluntarily, much less at risk to their lives and those of their families, march themselves into slavery. Money sent from Mexicans in the U.S is Mexico's #2 source of income.


It's not because the ''most'' want something in the u.s that you will get it you know. It's most likely to be the opposite. By the mean, you never get what you want.

I'm not sure what is the point of the rest of the message. So may I ask, What's the point?
You mean slavery in the u.s is better than in Mexico? Probaly, you're right.
Slavery is even better in Canada if you want to know.

[KG_Jag]

Perhaps you need to define exactly what you mean by your use of "slavery". I doubt that we are working from the same definition.

I believe that my entire thought was clearly expressed. Perhaps you just disagree.

[KG_Soldier]

The best way to seal the border is to increase the number of work visas. The need for migrant produce workers is very high. If they're documented properly, then we can know which ones are criminals. If you're a criminal, you can't come in and you can't stay. This way, the only ones trying to sneak across the border are the bad guys. Them, we can shoot with a clear conscience.

Now when it comes to Canada, I say build a big-ass fence. :)

And as far as the slavery part goes, Matrf doesn't know what he's talking about. I forgive him. Both Bill and I are pretty much life-long Texans and understand that Mexican culture is a big part of Texas culture. For the most part, the Mexican community in Texas consists of hard-working, family-oriented people. And I said "for the most part" because every ethnicity has its bad--white, black, ect. Mexicans working as migrant farm workers have it tough. No one can claim otherwise; however, they are not slaves and make so much more money here than in Mexico that it's silly to call them slaves.

By your reasoning Matrf, Mexico's 2nd largest industry is supplying the U.S. with slaves -- interesting.

[KG_Kharkov]

Well Soldier, if you keep enslaving the espanic immigrant, you may find the capital for it.
I heard the congress will vote on for legalizing gambling on cell phone before 2010, this could be an other option.

This is just an other cold war anyway. Spy and *censured* weapons.
When I see the u.s with weapons that send micro wave on ppl so they think they are in fire, this let me believe the war won't be conventional. And surely not public.

I think the winner will be the one with the most country under their influence. Using mercantile strategy on their vassal.

Is europe still allie with the u.s? Because I see a war with europe comming pretty fast. But I don't have all the information, so maybe I am mistaken.

This really makes me miss that New Zealand guy. What was his name? Tripps?

[KG_Soldier]

Sorry to hijack the post...but...did you get Madden '08 yet, John?
I have the afternoon off, so I guess I'll go practice against the Steelers.

[KG_Kharkov]

Not yet, maybe this weekend. My evenings have been busy with my son's football practices which ripple through to everything else. Football ends next week for him. I was online late though. PM me with your gamertag.

[KG_Soldier]

kgsoldier is it.

[Matrf]

Perhaps you need to define exactly what you mean by your use of "slavery". I doubt that we are working from the same definition.

I believe that my entire thought was clearly expressed. Perhaps you just disagree.

Capitalism is a form of slavery created by the ancestor of the egyptian. The lash was remplace by the basic need of humman.

There is different form of capitalism in the world. The americain capitalism is known as the most savage and hardest, and this, with the right people have gain over century. Now imagine the same capitalism without all these right...

[Matrf]

The best way to seal the border is to increase the number of work visas. The need for migrant produce workers is very high. If they're documented properly, then we can know which ones are criminals. If you're a criminal, you can't come in and you can't stay. This way, the only ones trying to sneak across the border are the bad guys. Them, we can shoot with a clear conscience.

Now when it comes to Canada, I say build a big-ass fence. :)

And as far as the slavery part goes, Matrf doesn't know what he's talking about. I forgive him. Both Bill and I are pretty much life-long Texans and understand that Mexican culture is a big part of Texas culture. For the most part, the Mexican community in Texas consists of hard-working, family-oriented people. And I said "for the most part" because every ethnicity has its bad--white, black, ect. Mexicans working as migrant farm workers have it tough. No one can claim otherwise; however, they are not slaves and make so much more money here than in Mexico that it's silly to call them slaves.

By your reasoning Matrf, Mexico's 2nd largest industry is supplying the U.S. with slaves -- interesting.

By your logic, if someone is already a slave in africa, than he can't be a slave in the u.s. This make no sense at all. You almost claim that youc can enslave them because they are already slave, because your slavery is better.

As for the big ass fence, I wish you build that fence, because when the fence will be build, we won't have any problems in Canada since 80% of the crimes are made with illigal guns that come from the u.s. By the smugler of both side.

With all the techonolgie the u.s have, I doubt they can't stop the illigal immigrant to enter.
Maybe it will cost you a arm, but when I visit New-york and find myself in restaurant with spanish-only-menu and worker that speak only spanish, I'm afraid these whore get more in the north and ruin my country too. To not say that most of them DONT WANT TO SPEAK ENGLISH AND WONT EVER WANT because they say the u.s is THEIR LAND and not yours.
I mean, in the south, it most be a total joke, I heard some city are getting spanish only.

[KG_Soldier]

Well... in the U.S., Matrf, one has the right to speak any language they choose. Yes, even the migrant farmworking slaves. The U.S. is a place of many cultures and languages--the LEAST rascist nation in the world, unlike your native France and the rest of Europe. And talk about rascism and slavery, you want to discuss Canadian treatment of Chinese workers on the Canadian Railroad? You call them (Mexicans) "Whores," I call them people. You can express your opinions here, but don't get rascist, please.

[KG_Jag]

Capitalism is a form of slavery created by the ancestor of the egyptian. The lash was remplace by the basic need of humman.

There is different form of capitalism in the world. The americain capitalism is known as the most savage and hardest, and this, with the right people have gain over century. Now imagine the same capitalism without all these right...

I have been very happy in my "slavery". I would much rather live in the U.S. than in a European socialistic nanny state that restricts my freedom and choices, takes most of my money, and tells me how to run my life.

Our challenge here is to keep some of our politicians from following much of Europe. All too often they seem to forget that the reason for our Revolution is that we wanted something very different here than they had in Europe. It was a great idea then and just as sound now.

[Matrf]

Well... in the U.S., Matrf, one has the right to speak any language they choose. Yes, even the migrant farmworking slaves. The U.S. is a place of many cultures and languages--the LEAST rascist nation in the world, unlike your native France and the rest of Europe. And talk about rascism and slavery, you want to discuss Canadian treatment of Chinese workers on the Canadian Railroad? You call them (Mexicans) "Whores," I call them people. You can express your opinions here, but don't get rascist, please.

I can't call criminals whore, but you say you shoot them?
How it is racist to call criminals whore?

That's pretty new that ''one has the right to speak any language they choose'' Because the 100 000 french that moved from Québec to the u.s in 1800 didn't have the RIGHT to speak french. If you want to talk about the past, we can do it on both side.

I won't defend France, because I'm far from french. And I don't know much about them.

[Matrf]

I have been very happy in my "slavery". I would much rather live in the U.S. than in a European socialistic nanny state that restricts my freedom and choices, takes most of my money, and tells me how to run my life.

Our challenge here is to keep some of our politicians from following much of Europe. All too often they seem to forget that the reason for our Revolution is that we wanted something very different here than they had in Europe. It was a great idea then and just as sound now.

If you have a brain, you are going to have a good job and a good rank in the social pyramide. So you are not really a slave if you have a good rank. This doesn't mean there is no slave around you. I also prefer freedom of choice over socialism. And I prefer a liberal democratie than the u.s.

I'm afraid your politicians can't be stop anymore. The u.s is a socialistic state like all others, or should I say ''most'' state. Because state in the south like Florida are not too much socialistic.

[KG_Jag]

If you have a brain, you are going to have a good job and a good rank in the social pyramide. So you are not really a slave if you have a good rank. This doesn't mean there is no slave around you.

My grandfather was kicked out of first grade because he only spoke German (in a Wisconsin German community). Having not finished high school, he started his working life painting outhouses for the Soo Line. He was smart, worked hard, and made it to the upper-middle class by his 30's or 40's. He also was an avid reader, despite his meager formal education. His only son (my dad) was the first in the family to attend college, from which he graduated with an engineering degree. His youngest daughter did the same thing, but with a different major. His is not the only story in the U.S. along these same lines. I can assure you that my grandfather never considered himself to be anyone's "slave".

And yes, if you're not very smart and are lazy, you are not likely to do very well in the U.S. I don't see a problem with that either personally or as a political/social philosophical viewpoint. Your society will be much poorer and probably not last very long, if you take from the achievers and give to those who slack off or who are habitually clueless about how to live a productive and fulfilling life.

[Matrf]

I know it's not because someone fail at school that he is going to fail totaly in our system. You showed a good example of this.

But theoricly, any evil worm with a brain and a good education can have slave that work for him. You can't deny the fact that a lot of people work in bad condition for poor salary. And the boss make a forturne.

Now why some business here in Canada want to have mexican that work for them? The reason is simple, they want to have people with no right to exploit them.

Do you know that some neo-conservative in Québec province claim the rigth to have slave? That many other say : ''God give us the right to be evil''
Can you believe it?

[KG_Swampfox]

I applaud the responders in this thread, each has a differing view points and has articulated their views quite well with out attacking or provoking other people........

And stimulated others to think about the topic.

Although you guys did hijack the thread quite nicely......

I'd really love to see a H to H close in knife fight between a flight of F-16s and a J-10s....

I dont think it would be much of a fight.............

[KG_Soldier]

Ahh... so nice to hear the voice of levity.

You da man Swampy.

[KG_ThorsHammer]

i think china is a big problem and when you add better technology to an immense army, they will probably become bolder and bolder. At some point taiwan is going to be a spark. I think the drain on US forces and money in Iraq has been substantial unfortunately, and could come back to haunt them, but there is always money available with a passed bill or two. When you've got several thousand nukes sitting around though, are you ever really worried?

I have no problem with law abiding hard working people legally immigrating to a country, weather it's Canada or the US. I do have a problem with Illegal immigrants coming over and not paying taxes, overloading the health system and complaining when we say they have to leave. Which part of ILLEGAL immigration is confusing? Come over legally so we know you're not a criminal and my taxes aren't used to support you and I will bring a welcome to my country sign to the border. I'm not an American but when the whole illegal immigration issue popped up and people were demonstrating against being deported with MEXICAN flags, it made me pretty mad. Thankgod its the land of the free. If little old me immigrated to china and I waved a Canadian flag around i'd probably find myself in some lovely new accomodations with some free political re-education.

Speaking of military spending, I just read that a couple years back they (the US government) cancelled their orders for the comanche attack helicopter, deeming it was too expensive. They would use the funds for more conventional upgrades and expansion. I can see some points about cost and a lower than desired payload but that chopper was stealth baby, stealth! they replaced it with a news helicopter for petes sake! Maybe if I get rich and can deploy my own little special forces group for worldwide "get the bad guys" operations I'll see if I can buy one :):burnout:

[KG_Panzerschreck]

I must Hi-Jack the thread once more and comment on Soldiers fine point about the USA being a melting pot of many cultures and Languages. Why just the other day, all with in 20 miles of my tiny 998 person town in the middle of no where Pennsylvania, i heard 3 "Foriegn" languages in one day. One the way home from a neighboring town, we stopped in a local Chinese Restaraut and i heard Mandarin spoken so fast it sounded like it was being fired out of an MG-42. On the way home from that town we stopped at a Mennonite Tack and Harness shop. The guy who runs the place does all kinds of beautiful leathwork. I ordered a new dog collar for my dog and we stopped in to pick it up. All the local Mennonites around here still speak German at home and i heard him talking to his two young sons in German. While i was in there, 3 Mexican migrant workers were in there as well picking up a saddle for their employer. I heard the one who could speak English translating for the ones who couldnt into Spanish.

And on a side note for our friend from Quebec, 100's if not 1,000's of people speak, and have spoken French in Louisianna for hundreds of years. There are even remote parts in the Bayou where people speak no English at all belive it or not. :beerglass