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KG_Cloghaun
08-27-2008, 06:30 PM
From the BBC today: 8/27/08

UK urges tough response to Russia

UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called on the EU and Nato to initiate "hard-headed engagement" with Russia in response to its actions in Georgia.

In a speech in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he urged them to bolster their allies, rebalance the energy relationship with Russia and defend international law.
Russia recognised the independence of Georgia's two breakaway regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, on Tuesday.

Moscow's fellow G8 members have condemned its actions in Georgia.
"We, the foreign ministers of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United States and the United Kingdom, condemn the action of our fellow G8 member," the group of seven of the world's leading industrialised nations said in a joint statement.

"We deplore Russia's excessive use of military force in Georgia and its continued occupation of parts of Georgia."

Ukraine's President Victor Yushchenko has said his country is a hostage in a war waged by Russia against countries in the old Soviet bloc.

Russia was, is and will continue to be the last country in the world that would want a repeat of the Cold War
Dmitry Peskov
Russian government spokesman


He told Mr Miliband that the brief conflict between Georgia and Russia earlier this month had exposed serious weaknesses in the powers of the UN and other international bodies.

He called for Ukraine's defences to be strengthened and said his country would consider increasing the amount of money Russia pays for the lease of the port of Sevastopol, where it stations its Black Sea Fleet.

"When we allow someone to ignore the fundamental right of territorial integrity, we put into doubt the independence or existence of any country, any nation," he said.

Fighting between Russia and Georgia began on 7 August after the Georgian military tried to retake its Russian-backed breakaway province of South Ossetia by force.

Russian forces subsequently launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and Abkhazia and an EU-brokered ceasefire.

Russia 'unreconciled'
After holding talks with President Yushchenko, Mr Miliband told a group of students in Kiev that the Georgia crisis had "provided a rude awakening".


David Miliband said Russia must not start a new Cold War
Mr Miliband said Moscow's "unilateral attempt to redraw the map marks a moment of real significance".

Russian President Dimitry Medvedev, he said, had a "big responsibility not to start" a new Cold War.

The foreign secretary said the response of the EU and Nato to such "aggression" should be one of "hard-headed engagement".

"That means bolstering our allies, rebalancing the energy relationship with Russia, defending the rules of international institutions, and renewing efforts to tackle 'unresolved conflicts'," he explained.

Mr Miliband again rejected calls for Russia to be expelled from the G8, but did suggest the EU and Nato needed to review relations with it.
He also reiterated the British government's support for Ukraine's application for full Nato membership.

European warnings
The Russian government later responded to Mr Miliband's criticism by saying Moscow saw no threat of a new Cold War.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said Russia had been taking "measures of precaution" against Nato warships in the Black Sea, but hoped to avoid confrontation.

SOUTH OSSETIA & ABKHAZIA
South Ossetia Population: About 70,000 (before recent conflict)
Capital: Tskhinvali
President: Eduard Kokoity
Abkhazia Population: About 250,000 (2003)
Capital: Sukhumi
President: Sergei Bagapsh



"I wouldn't agree that we really have a threat of a new Cold War. Russia was, is and will continue to be the last country in the world that would want a repeat of the Cold War," Dmitry Peskov said.

China meanwhile addressed the crisis for the first time by expressing "concern" about developments in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and urging dialogue.

The comments came as Chinese President Hu Jintao met President Medvedev in Tajikistan ahead of a regional summit.
In other developments

Georgia moved to reduce its diplomatic presence in Moscow, confirming its ambassador would not return
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the continued presence of Russian forces in Georgia proper was a grave ceasefire violation. She also agreed to send up to 15 military observers to Georgia as part of an OSCE mission
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow would support the presence of more international monitors in the buffer zones
French President Nicolas Sarkozy described Moscow's decision as an unacceptable attempt to change borders, and said any settlement had to be based on international law, dialogue and respect for Georgia's territorial integrity
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner called Russia an "international outlaw" and said the real worry was not a new Cold War but a "hot" one, suggesting that another Russian objective might now be Ukraine's mainly Russian-speaking territory of Crimea.Preventing 'catastrophe'
On Tuesday, Mr Medvedev said Moscow had been obliged to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia following the "genocide" started by Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili in South Ossetia in August. HAVE YOUR SAY (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/default.stm)Miliband should keep his nose out of it unless he wants it bloodied by the Russians Di, London


"The most important thing was to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe," he told the BBC in an interview in the Russian city of Sochi.

Georgia said Russia was seeking to "change Europe's borders by force".
Most of Russia's forces pulled out of the rest of Georgia last Friday but it maintains a presence both within the two rebel regions and in buffer zones imposed round their boundaries. Mr Medvedev has blamed Georgia for failing to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the crisis.

KG_Soldier
08-27-2008, 06:41 PM
Update: Today, England, France, and Germany sent a strongly worded letter to Russian Prime Minister Vladimer Putin stating their anger at Russian recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The letter set a timetable for the Russian withdrawl of all forces in Georgia. It also stated that another very strongly worded letter would follow if the Russians failed to act.

KG_Kharkov
08-28-2008, 08:02 AM
I love strongly worded letters. I'm sure the Russians put them in the Strongly Worded Letter file.

I'm just thankful that NATO hadn't admitted this country. Going to war over 300,000 folks in some remote area would be idiotic. I'd much rather stop genocide in Darfur then settle age old conflicts amongst Russia and its satellites.

KG_Soldier
08-28-2008, 10:17 AM
I agree, John. Going to war for Georgia would have been as silly as going to war for Poland turned out to be in 1939.

KG_Cloghaun
08-28-2008, 10:28 AM
I'm just thankful that NATO hadn't admitted this country. Going to war over 300,000 folks in some remote area would be idiotic. I'd much rather stop genocide in Darfur then settle age old conflicts amongst Russia and its satellites.

I suppose that same logic could be applied to not invading Iraq. Nato is not the UN. Don't worry John, if McCain gets in, we'll invade Pakistan soon enough.

These "satellites" are soveriegn free nations that want Democracy (unlike Iraq who will always vote along sectarian and/or ethnic lines no matter what we try to cram down their throat)) under threat once again from Russian Communist expansion. The U.S. & Nato have a responsibility to check that threat, whether through diplomacy, sanctions or military action.

The difference now is whether we as a nation choose to view Russia's emerging new threat real or imagined. Based on their history, I believe it's real & we are witnessing a new chapter in the story.

KG_Kharkov
08-28-2008, 11:11 AM
So, Cloghaun, you are in command of NATO. Are you really saying you'd authorize military action to remove troops from Georgia? How much of the U.S. do you think would even support that type of action?

And Soldier, Poland didn't decide to roll its army into disputed territory held by the Russians and Germans. Georgia is clearly at fault here. 16 years of relative ceasefire turns into war because their idiot President decides to flex his muscle.

The U.S. and NATO have a responsibility to exercise common sense in who they admit and how they exercise their power. Admitting Georgia at this time serves no purpose other than to increase the threat to our national security - I would not be in favor of admitting a state that exercised such poor judgement. Just as an attack on one is an attack on all in NATO, so easily can it be that the poor judgement of one is the poor judgement of all.

And where were your cries of outrage and for intervention when the Pakistani military displaced the rightfully elected civilian government in Pakistan?

I am not sympathetic to the Georgians plight. It is of their own creation. They could have accomplished all their security goals through common sense and diplomacy and instead chose force.

KG_Cloghaun
08-28-2008, 01:13 PM
At this time, no I would not. Like I said, diplomacy first, which is what is taking place right now. It's what you mockingly referred to as "loving strongly worded letters". Your solution is to do nothing it seems.

As to Pakistan, the military coup took place before you & I ever met, so you wouldn't know what my feelings are. But you should've had some indication when I made my posts regarding Bhutto.


I am not sympathetic to the Georgians plight. It is of their own creation. They could have accomplished all their security goals through common sense and diplomacy and instead chose force.

Therefore it gave Russia, (a neighboring country), a legitimate excuse to invade them & restore order (by force). Now that "order" has been restored, they've decided to occupy Georgia.

And you see nothing wrong with this?

KG_Cloghaun
08-28-2008, 01:27 PM
And Soldier, Poland didn't decide to roll its army into disputed territory held by the Russians and Germans. Georgia is clearly at fault here. 16 years of relative ceasefire turns into war because their idiot President decides to flex his muscle.

Abkhasia & S. Ossetia are part of soveriegn Georgia & is recognized so by the UN. Until they have fair & free elections in those 2 regions, they will remain as such.

Russia's got NO business in any of it. The only reason there are Russian speaking natives there is because they basically occupied Georgia since the 19th century through 2 invasions.

KG_Soldier
08-28-2008, 01:29 PM
Obama is the one who has said he might invade Pakistan, not McCain.

And John, even if Russia had invaded Georgia as an act of aggression, as Germany did Poland, I still wouldn't support any kind of military action, even if the Russians annexed Georgia.

Honestly, Pakistan is the biggest threat to world order today. There are millions of decent Pakistanis, but there are way too many religious extremists as well. I don't know what we should do about Pakistan. I guess all we can do is hope the moderates win and prepare in case the Islamists win.

KG_Kharkov
08-28-2008, 02:00 PM
We seem to have short memories. The U.S. set this precedent by recognizing Kosovo independence against the wishes of Russia. Russia used that in our faces to recognize the independence of two breakaway provinces that are strongly pro-Russian. Both those provinces had previously passed referenda if I recall correctly voting for independence from Georgia.

It still doesn't change the fact that Georgia exercised collosally poor judgement.

And for all the outrage, our only disagreement appears to be that I am realist and know there is no way we are going to war over Georgia and some of you are more idealist and want to support sending strongly worded letters telling Russia how bad they are. If we really wanted to send a message, we'd get our NATO allies to start severing their economic ties to the bounty of mother Russia. But realism prevents that from happening. As long as most of NATO is interdependent on Russia, a more diplomatic approach to Russia is required, one that doesn't restart the Cold War over the temporary invasion of some minor country that punched Russia in the nose on the eve of the Olympics.

KG_Kharkov
08-28-2008, 02:03 PM
Russia's got NO business in any of it. The only reason there are Russian speaking natives there is because they basically occupied Georgia since the 19th century through 2 invasions.

So I guess we have no business in most of the West since we displaced the native Indians from it and put our settlements all over it. I'm more disturbed by our treatment of the American indian (drive through Arizona, New Mexico and Utah and try not to get depressed at the life we've given them) then the plight of the Georgian nationalists upset over Russia's involvement in their affairs the past 100 years.

KG_Soldier
08-28-2008, 02:11 PM
Nuke Russia, Nuke 'em now!

KG_AGCent
08-28-2008, 02:48 PM
We could, in addition to sending "strongly worded letters" to the respective comabtants, we could also begin "veiwing with alarm" the actions of the aggressors, knowing that they will know that we know they now know that we know and are "shocked" and "concerned" over the developments.

The American Indian issue is dead. We as a nation have done more, paid more and protrated ourselves in self-loathing more than enough to make up for the sins of our fathers. Done. Dead. Gone.

There is no doubt in my mind based on the reporting I have read, like THIS ONE (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121988657412478425.html?mod=googlenews_wsj), that this was planned by Russia long in advance and were simply waiting for the right moment to strike. This was a case of a nation, fully recognized by the international community, trying its best to find a way through the labrinth of new democratically founded and elected nationhood. Internal struggles are a part of this process.

To see how this is generally handled in a democratic society, one need look only as far as our own borders. What happened when the malcontents in LA rioted over the Rodney King verdict? National Guard and US Marines (I know because I was one of them) were moved in to quell the disturbance. How about that little fiasco in 1861 when a few agitators in Richmond, Virginia decided they wanted to exercise their "right" to self-determination? Internal struggles dealt with by internal means.

The point is that this WAS an INTERNAL problem that had all the appropriate international observers and in place and monitoring the situation and generally giving positive feed-back. The only real complaint was that Russian sponsored peace keeping force in South Ossetia was hardly unbiased or even handed toward the local provisional government. A request by Georgia to Russia to replace the all Russian force with a Commonwealth of Independent States force was promptly ignored by Putin. Not an unreasonable request, IMHO, but certainly didn't fit into the plans of the "concerned" Russian president.

KG_Soldier
08-28-2008, 04:07 PM
"The American Indian issue is dead." Literally!

Maybe not really "Internal," but close enough.